End of Life

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Revision as of 16:18, 24 April 2015 by Karsten (Talk | contribs) (Summary)

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End of Life


If you were sent here following a customer service request, then you have purchased a very old, possibly counterfeit, product from a used junk dealer (someone other than us who was selling what they allege to be "used" game tables). You may wish to request a refund from the person you purchased it from if it was a recent purchase, or if you choose, you can upgrade it to a brand new, guaranteed legitimate table by following the instructions at the bottom of the page. We know this is upsetting and is a hassle for everyone involved, but we unfortunately do not have the ability to prevent this sort of thing from happening. What we can do, however, is credit you the amount you spent on the bad product to be applied towards a legitimate product. We do this at our own expense because we understand that Linden Lab has made it difficult for consumers to determine what is and is not a legitimate product on the Marketplace, and we empathize with consumers who have been taken advantage of by unethical sellers on Marketplace.

What is End of Life?

End of Life is a term used to indicate that specific versions of a product (NOT THE ENTIRE PRODUCT, only really old versions!) have exceeded the time they were expected to remain functional and in use. In practical terms, this means there may be little or no support available for really old versions of a product that have reached the end of their expected life-cycles.

What does this mean for me?

The most fundamental aspect of End of Life is that you may not be able to receive free updates for your product or service if it is a really old version. If you have a version of a product that is in End of Life, then you can contact us for an upgrade to a newer version of that same product, and we will make a determination about whether you are eligible for a free update to a version that is still supported. This eligibility has the following conditions:

  1. If we have an original purchase transaction for you, we will upgrade you. (We keep a record of all transactions, going back many, many years.)
    • We will also upgrade you if it was a gift, and we can find the original gift purchase (such as through Marketplace where Recipient is different than Buyer.)
  2. If we have a Gaming.SL proof of ownership record for you, we will upgrade you. This includes games that have been transferred to friends, family, alts, etc. With Gaming.SL, we can verify your ownership of a table even if you did not originally buy it, something not possible with pre-Gaming.SL tables.
  3. If your account is older than the product and we can't otherwise verify where it came from, we will probably upgrade you. (explained below)

The reasons for this are:

  1. Linden Lab has failed to prevent the illegal duplication of transfer-only products. There's no way to know whether a used table is a duplicate or a real used table. I have personally shut down several counterfeit rings and reported dozens of accounts for using loopholes to clone old tables. And then they make new accounts and start over doing the same thing.
  2. Linden Lab has failed to correct the broken llEmail() function that pre-Gaming.SL tables relied on for updates. It has been broken for years, and is the reason that old tables often get stuck updating because they are unable to send or receive messages from the server object in my region. Unfortunately, llEmail() is the only way for an object in one sim to communicate with an object in a different sim without using an outside server, and it is no longer reliable. Sometimes it will go days without sending any messages, and then work for a while, then stop again. Sometimes it sends through every other message, it's just unreliable in every sense of the word. It has been this way for more than 5 years. As a result, this old update server will probably be taken offline in the near future as it is no longer reliably functional. This old update server only services very old games.
  3. Most importantly, Linden Lab has failed to make the Marketplace a trustworthy place for customers and creators to conduct business. The only method they have given us for dealing with people mislabeling and misappropriating our products and brands on the Marketplace is the utterly inept and clunky DMCA process. While they are fairly reliable about taking down offending products (because the government mandates it), these products return quickly, sometimes mere minutes later, when the offender creates a new listing, and repeated offenders are never handled. Because of unethical resellers on the Marketplace selling counterfeit (or legitimate) used tables, a grotesque amount of my time is wasted with customers who think they're buying from me because of vague or outright misleading listings, when in reality they bought a very, very old table from a third party. Linden Lab needs to accept that there is absolutely no legitimate reason for the Marketplace to be used to sell items by people who did not create them, and take action accordingly. At the very least, the Marketplace needs to have a very large, very prominent warning on items being sold by people who did not create them. This is especially needed when they're sold as limited stock items, meaning the seller does not have full permissions on the item.

The reason we say we will probably upgrade you if your account is older than the product is because most of the used products on the Marketplace currently average 6-years-old or more. The vast majority of people buying them are nowhere near that age, and thus it is impossible for them to be the original purchaser. If your account is older than the table, then it's at least possible you were the original purchaser of the table, even if we have no record of it, and we are inclined to be more lenient in these cases.

If you don't meet the criteria for a free update to a supported version, you may still be able to receive an update at a much lower price than a new table. Please see below for more details.

What products are effected by End of Life?

See the table below for a list of products and services that have an End of Life policy effecting them. The version adjacent to the product below indicates the minimum supported version of that product.

If your version is equal to or newer than the minimum supported version, then this End of Life policy does not apply to you. Any product older than the listed version is considered to have exceeded its lifespan.

If your product is not listed, then all versions of that product are supported. The table below only lists products which have one or more unsupported versions.

Game Minimum Supported Version Release Date
Greedy Greedy v2.0 Feb 2011

This is bullshit, the notecard says lifetime updates!

Yes it does, and if you have a legitimately purchased product it should still apply, you will just need to contact us about it. You do not need to be the original purchaser of the product, as long as we can trace its heritage back to us. If we have no proof that your table was legitimately purchased, then this clause should not and does not apply. Unfortunately, we cannot take responsibility for the actions of those who conduct unethical business practices in Second Life. There is good news, however! Keep reading below.

I've been screwed by buying an old table, what do I do?

There is good news! You may still be able to replace your bad table with a good one. Please read this section completely.

If the person you bought an old table from is a responsible, ethical business person in Second Life, they will have labeled their product as being End of Life. I personally notify sellers who are selling old K.R. Engineering products on the Marketplace that they are selling End of Life products and that they should label them accordingly. If they refuse to do so, then this is deliberately deceptive on their part and they are attempting to carry out fraud.

If the product you purchased was correctly labeled as being an End of Life product, then this is your mistake and you should pay attention to what you are buying.

If the product was not correctly labeled, you should:

  1. Explain this to the seller and request a refund. (You may want to send them a link to this page.)
  2. Leave a review on the product page (if purchased from Marketplace) that you purchased it from indicating that you were sold misrepresented goods and rate accordingly.
  3. Report the seller to Linden Lab for conducting fraudulent business practices in Second Life.

Purchased on Marketplace

If you have been the victim of a fraudulent sale on the Marketplace, you may be eligible to purchase a legitimate copy of the product at a heavily discounted price. Eligibility for this discount only applies if you are unable to secure a refund from the seller who sold you the bad product. (Most sellers, reasonably, will not consider refunds after a certain time has gone by. If you've had this table for months or years, it's unreasonable to expect a refund from them after so long.) You must also leave a review on the product you purchased, as this serves as proof that you purchased that item from that seller because the Marketplace only lets you review items that you have purchased.

After leaving your review, you may send us a link to your review AND the bad product that you received and you will be given the opportunity to buy a legitimate copy of the product for its current price minus what you paid for the bad item.


  1. You buy an old Greedy Greedy game for L$900.
  2. Seller refuses you a refund of the fraudulent product. (Or it is too old for a refund)
  3. You write an appropriate review on the fraudulent product's Marketplace listing.
  4. You send us a link to your Pulitzer-worthy review and the bad product.
  5. You will be given a store credit at K.R. Engineering worth L$900 (the price you paid for the bad product) which you can then use towards a legitimate copy of the game from our store.

Please see the Store Policies page for contact information. Discounted replacements are solely at our discretion.

If you're not sure what Marketplace listing you bought, you can find it in your order history on the Marketplace.

Purchased in Second Life

If you purchased it used from a vendor in-world, you may still be eligible for a discounted update, but since it is impossible for us to verify purchases done in-world then this will be entirely a call we have to make on an individual basis.

Please see the Store Policies page for contact information. Discounted replacements are solely at our discretion.

If you don't want your tables resold, why not make them no-transfer?

This is a question I get often, and unfortunately there simply isn't a good solution to preventing resale of bad or old products. There are two possible permissions I could sell game tables under, copyable OR transferable. Transferable is the current situation. If I make them copyable, then one person can buy a game table, and rez copies of it on 2, 10, 20, 100, or more sims for their friends, however many they want, there's no limit.

Both of these permissions have problems associated with them. Creators have been begging Linden Lab for a separate "Sale" permission from the "Transfer" permission for the last decade, to control whether an item can be given away or sold away separately, but they're obviously not inclined to make this change. More discrete permissions would give us more control over exactly how we want our products distributed, but this is a shortfalling that Second Life will probably have for its entire existence.